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migchess20 11 ( +1 | -1 )
HELP

Message:
Hi Friends:
What is the better line after of:
1.d4, Nf3 2.c4,e6 3.Nc3,d5 4.Bg5, Be7 5.Nf3, Nbd7 6.e3, 0-0 7.Rc1,c6 8.Qc2,h6 9.Bh4,Re810.cxd5, exd511.Bd3
So long
paulberg 11 ( +1 | -1 )
answer.. 11...Bd6 or 11...Nb6. Either way white is looking to either check your king with his bishop or castle.

pauL
anaxagoras 53 ( +1 | -1 )
Come on now... Obviously White is not going to check the Black king with his Bishop because he would lose it to Nxh7. Both White and Black are playing very passive game (as White I would prefer the Queen's Rook on b1 for a minority attack). Black has to attack down the e-file and should have it in his long range plans to advance f5-f4 etc. but such an attack is a long ways off as there's no good place to retreat the Knight on f6, and the d7 Knight has to cover e5. Oh, I don't have time to analyze this right now! ;-)
migchess20 4 ( +1 | -1 )
Thanks Thanks for your opinions.
So long
paulberg 33 ( +1 | -1 )
anaxagoras Perhaps you need to look closer. White has two good choices as I see it; Bh7+ because Nxh7 would lose black's queen and Kxh7 is obviously illegal, or Nb6. Bh7+ is obviously a bit sharper play than the more concervative knight development. Either are good, I think.

Have fun playing chess today, and God bless.
pauL
peppe_l 21 ( +1 | -1 )
paulberg "11...Bd6 or 11...Nb6. Either way white is looking to either check your king with his bishop or castle."

After 11...Bd6 you are correct. But after 11...Nb6 (12.Bh7+?? Nxh7) anaxagoras is correct :-)

I am not sure if Bh7+ is useful, though.

How about 11...Ne4 or even 11...Nf8?
ccmcacollister 174 ( +1 | -1 )
Greetings All;you've interesting ideas ! The line 11...Bd6 12.Bh7+ Paul, when you say Bh7+ or 0-0, you REALLY mean "OR" , don't you! 8-)
As seeming to me the only justification for Bh7+, I assume you plan to follow with the very committed switch to K-side attack, which leaves your K in the center, with: 12...Kh8 13.g4!? Qc7 (or Qa5)(vs Qc7 not14.Nb5?) 14.Bd3 to make Ke2 cozy & continue attack with pawn pushing & QR to K-side easy now.
**
Interesting, I thought: 14.Bg6?! fxg6 (15.Qg6? Nf8) 15.Bxf6 Nxf6(or d5 hangs too) 16.Qxg6 & again d5 is hanging to NXd5; plus the pawn pushes, poss KN infiltration, etc. Does WT get enough here then? Looks to be fun to see here. But unless it works out to a certain win, I'd prefer the Bd3 retreat since Bg6 does invest the piece, Wt K less secure(espec. if ...b6 plays)& maybe R@c1 harder to switch sides then.
Re:11 ... Nb6 idea though, Paul, I don't see your point there ? Such as 12.h3 Be6
13.0-0 Nc8 aiming for Nd6 at e4 is pretty slow. WT with 3 quick ideas: b4,e4,or Ne5 & only one can be stopped with BL's move 14.... or an alt. 13....move.....(?)
***
Hi Peppi ! As you suggest, I also like the 11... Nf8 move.Wishing ...Bg4...Bh5...Bg6
maneuver, could take off the good Bd3. But so far I seem to come-up short for BL in that; EG 11....Nf8, 12.0-0 (12.b4 a6 for time) Bg4 13.Ne5 Bh5 Now still if 14.b4 ...a6 but BL QB never can help there anymore. Or 14.f4 or f3 concern me. And 14....Ng6 or 14...Bg6 replies not adequate.
So for BL here after 11...Nf8 12.0-0 must not ....Bd6 be played , now? (12...Nfd7 ?!) I don't like ...Ne4 here as well as in the lines below this, since here WT is already 0-0. Wondering what your thinking is on this, IF other than ...Bd6 here. ?

What I had hoped for was 11....Nf8 12.h3. And then 12...Ne4 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.Bxe4 dxe4 15.Nd2 f5 where now 16 ... f4 interests me in response to #16's of d5,Nc4,b4, or Nb3. Wondering how strong the BL attack will be ?

Or upon 11....Nf8 12.Ne5 then both ....Ng4 or ...N6d7 seem playable. WT wishes some of the Nxf7 ideas might work a little better.
Regards, Craig

PS: Thx Migchess, this is about the most interesting QG i've seen! {Along with one other, but it was a Slav }
paulberg 55 ( +1 | -1 )
Sorry, need to clarify.. Yes, I think white will either Bd7+ or 0-0. Just an opinion.. or that's what I would do. I think black has two good options. Either develop the King's Bishop to Bd6 or the Queen's Knight Nb6. I'm sure there are plenty of other good ideas. This is what makes chess so interesting. Peppe, after black's 11...Bd6 I would 12.Bd7+ to seperate the the king and add pressure. Black still can not Nxd7 or he would lose his Queen. A more conservative approach for white would be to just 0-0.

I've liked all the other ideas as well. God bless.
pauL
atrifix 502 ( +1 | -1 )
Perhaps this will be my last analysis. As I am very quickly finishing up my games, I stumbled across this thread and felt I should respond.

First, I will agree with anaxagoras that both sides are playing rather passively. Black is playing a rather old, passive variation, and the cxd5 exchange so late in the game does not favor White. White's rook should be either on a1 or b1, and Black would prefer to have his pawn on h7 and White's Bishop on g5, for reasons I will illustrate later.

As for the suggestions of moves like 11... Bd6, 11... Nb6, and 12. Bh7+, my honest opinion is that they are all fairly bad or inferior moves. I think this is a symptom of just tossing out moves rather than getting to the heart of the position, and I don't think we need to analyze more than a half-move ahead to see why a move like 12. Bh7+ is bad: White's bishop is already very well posted on d3, and by forcing the Black King to h8 White really does not disrupt Black's position at all. Meanwhile White will have to lose at least a tempo retreating the Bishop to d3, which is where he had it in the first place.

But before we look into any moves we should try to identify what is going on in the position, that is, what each side will try to do and what their plan is. This more or less hinges around the central pawn structure and the half-open c- and e-files. White would like to create a pawn weakness on c6 by b4-b5xc6, and Black would ideally like to do the same by f5-f4xe3. There is the slight difference that Black's King will be a little weaker after the f5 advance, so it will be a little more difficult for Black to carry out his advance. Thus Black will also have to make some moves on the Queenside to slow White's attack down while he builds his Kingside attack. So Black will have to play either ...a6, or else ...b5 and ...Nb6-c4 after White has played b4 (a little more difficult to do, since Black has to reckon with White's Queen and Rook on the c-file). Thus ...Nb6 is bad because (1) it interferes with the advance of Black's b-pawn, and cannot go to c4 before ...b5, and (2) it removes the knight from where Black's pieces should be going: to the Kingside.

But back to Black's plan of ...f5. In order to carry out such an advance, he must move first his knight. The only good square for the knight is e4, so 11... Ne4 should come into consideration. This is why 11... Bd6 is bad: the bishop is best placed on e7 where it breaks the pin and creates a discovered attack on White's bishop. If the bishop is already better placed on e7 than d6, don't move it. If Black plays 11... Ne4, however, he will have to reckon with 12. Bxe4 because of 12... dxe4 13. Qxe4. However, it does not seem to me that Black stands badly after 12... Bxh4, e.g., 13. Bh7+ Kh8 14. 0-0 (not 14. Nxh4? Qxh4 15. Bd3 Rxe3+) 14... Be7 15. Bf5 Bd6 (= to =+).

The only other move that should come into consideration is 11... Nf8, continuing Black's development but moving the knight to a better square (where it can go to g6, e6, or g5 via h7) than b6. However, White has the fairly good response 12. Bg3, and 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. b4 also comes into consideration. So Black's move must be 11... Ne4. White will either respond 12. Bxe4, which we have already looked at, or 12. Bxe7 Qxe7, which seems slightly better to me. White finds it very difficult to carry out the advance b2-b4 while Black's bishop or Queen is posted on the f8-a3 diagonal, since the pawn would hang. He could prepare it with a3, but then the a3 pawn would hang after b5, and Black could also harass the pawns with ...a5. White could also play Rb1, but that would lose a tempo. Nevertheless, this is the best way to play, since otherwise it will be extremely difficult to carry out b4-b5 at all. However, White should play 13. 0-0 first to safeguard his King, and because it is slightly more flexible.

So now we have 11... Ne4 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. 0-0, and I believe this is the best way to play this position. My evaluation is that the chances are relatively balanced, but it is slightly more pleasant to play Black. Black has the rather good choice between 13... f5 (probably not best, since it blocks in the Bishop and White will play Ne2-f4), ...Nf8, ...Ndf6, ...Ng5, or ...a5 (not intending to attack the queenside, but rather a prophylactic move to slow down White's b2-b4).

I should note that from the initial position there is another plan for White besides the minority attack: play in the center and Kingside with Nd2, f3, and e4. However, this plan is bad in this particular position because White has already moved his Rook and cannot castle Queenside, and should not combine play in the center with castling Kingside. White risks weakening his King if he does so (e.g., 11... Ne4 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. Nd2?? Nxf2).

Again, I think things are relatively balanced after 11... Ne4 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13.0-0, but Black's position is preferable. I hope I shed some light on the position.
anaxagoras 29 ( +1 | -1 )
atrifix, that was a model discussion of the position. It reminds me of Silman's insistance that a player develop a whole plan based on the relative imbalances in the position as well as taking into account the opponent's best plan. I have nothing to add; you will be missed here!
ccmcacollister 131 ( +1 | -1 )
Agreed indeed, Nice dynamics Atrifix ! I'm into dynamics myself. And like Silmans approach of defining such and seeking increased existing advantages or adding compatible ones based upon it. You're very well stated here! But I've told you that before, how much I enjoy your analysis; I'll buy your book for sure, if anytime you write one! Wish I could write Chess like you or Caldezar.
*********************
What strikes me here is, we almost "forget" the critcal nature of the c7 structural weakness. Interesting. I mean forget to mention. I know its not been overlooked, from the ideas presented. It just struck me how Silmanesque(!?) peoples approach is becoming, that it was not mentioned outright. If WT infiltrates it successfully, I don't think it will matter much if it cost a pawn to do it or not.
But i overlooked your idea of a Nc4 blockage of the file! Really gives the BL position more flexibility. And was thinking Q-side clearance ASAP, for Rook coverage of it as the only viable idea vs the minority attack (such attk, certainly the standard idea here, sure). Tho seems to me, WT has another idea than mentioned yet. To just play for e4, and play it as a d4 isolani position. Not to say I like the idea.

But I always like to see new ideas too. The wealth of this position surprised me. Usually I avoid any side of a QG like plague. But for an occasional WT with Bf4 and o-o-o.
Regards, Craig
ccmcacollister 167 ( +1 | -1 )
Oh, A final remark .... One aspect here why I would look at options for WT other than the normally indicated Q-side minority attack for WT. The thing is this, as I see it. Unless the minority attack Is provably a winning proposition, then it does behoove WT to look at the alternatives, tho not necessarily immediately dictated by THE PRESENT DYNAMIC SITUATION.
IF WT CAN strike fast and first upon the K-side, and I do like Ke2 for that reason (as mentioned the Bd3 need not be moved now, as it costs tempi to do so; I might do it in blitz for the shock value tho)since with the Bd3 the king is nicely safe there & Rooks free to transfer to the K-side. If WT does successfully instigate a meaningful K-side assault ... The is NO Place left for BL to play ! For by everyones outlook, what does he HAVE but to play on the Kingside? With the mostly slow & weakiening f5 idea, at that. And being 0-0 BL's King must live in the field where he wants to launch his attack. Every move there loosening it.
....So I think it is proper to look for new strategies at times, in addition to the immediately indicated path. There is also some advantage to be had in the intangible effects of such an idea upon the defender, who has no doubt beheld many a minority attack if a regular QGD player. But successes in the f4,o-o-o QG have led me to believe BL players of the opening are often not prepared to shift gears & play vs K-side assault. Which here has a structural indicated target of the pawn moved to h6. And his Bh4 that might otherwise get in his own way, is easily exchanged off. So Kingside actions by WT has some attractions too, and starts to look all the more desireable to me now after considering Atrifixes definsive Nc4 idea vs the minority attack on Q-side.
Nc4 Before which, I felt WT was almost a Win from it. Certainly if c7 is successfully infiltrated.